We still need a list view of group members

elenacarlena's Avatar

elenacarlena

22 Nov, 2020 06:00 PM

Seriously, we need to see who are administrators, editors, contributors, invitees who may never have answered their invitations. And it's a lot easier to have all or most on the same page. The new group members page is adorable but not functional. PLEASE resume list views and keep them going forward! Our hands are tied in many ways without them. It can't be that difficult, it's just providing a link for the old code, isn't it?

  1. Support Staff 1 Posted by Daily Kos Staff on 03 Dec, 2020 10:23 PM

    Daily Kos Staff's Avatar

    Thanks for your comment here. Would you be willing to expand upon it in some detail? We do have a wish list for post-launch fixes, but we are also interested in having one more round of discussions about the new groups page layout and process. It would be helpful for all of us to make sure we understand the specific needs that you have as group admins that are not easy to fulfill with the new design. Specific examples are welcome, and screenshots too.
    Greatly appreciate your help.

  2. 2 Posted by elenacarlena on 05 Dec, 2020 08:04 PM

    elenacarlena's Avatar

    Unfortunately, I didn't save any screenshots of the way the list view used to be set up, but it was highly functional. It had no photos, so could have many more members listed on one page, greatly saving time when an admin wants to view the entire membership. It also, IIRC, listed members in order, with admins first, then editors, then contributors, then invitees who hadn't responded to their invitations yet. The status was right there on the same line as the name.

    So for example, recently a member asked the group for help because she couldn't find her name on the membership list even though the group was listed on her profile, and she wanted a diary reblogged and a new writer added, but couldn't figure out how to do either. As an admin, I was able to do a search for her particular name, find it and increase her status so that she could then see it. I also searched for the writer and their name did not appear, so I invited them. All of this would have been much easier under the old list, when the contributor could have seen that was her status and asked for an upgrade, she could have looked and verified that the writer of interest hadn't been invited yet, and an admin would have seen her name right off without conducting a search.

    The main thing admins used to do that cannot be done now, AFAICT because it doesn't involve specific names, was clean up the member list occasionally: Look at the list of invitees and remove their names and, where they thought there still was interest, invite them again. Sometimes, for a variety of reasons, invitations and/or responses seemed to get lost. If you don't have a specific name you can't do anything now unless you're willing to load page after page and read the entire list and click on each to determine their status, which in some groups is hundreds of people.

    I'm contacting other admins so hopefully they'll add their comments for your use as well.

    Thanks for asking!

  3. 3 Posted by ninkasi23 on 05 Dec, 2020 08:53 PM

    ninkasi23's Avatar

    I admin What's for Dinner and I agree that having a list view option for the members is something I miss in the new format. I know that you can go to the group page and choose the list view and it displays the old kos format with a text-only list of the posts. It used to be similar for the members list so I'm guessing it has to do with moving all the back-end stuff to the new build. It would be very helpful for maintaining groups if there could be some sort of list view text-only option for the members list.

  4. 4 Posted by Brecht on 05 Dec, 2020 08:54 PM

    Brecht's Avatar

    I strongly second this point: Seriously, we need to see who are administrators, editors, contributors, invitees who may never have answered their invitations. And it's a lot easier to have all or most on the same page.

    We used to be able to see one hundred members on a page, starting with Admins and proceeding down the ranks (though only Admins could see the unresolved invitees at the end of the list). I'm the most active Admin in two groups, which each have 200+ members. I used to be able to peruse all our members in three pages. This was extremely useful and efficient for many administrative tasks.

    Nowadays, we can see at most 12 members on a page. In the Readers and Book Lovers group, it now takes 24 pages to get the bottom of the member list, before I even reach our unresolved invitees. Very unwieldy, time-consuming, and hard to hold so many names and figures in your mind at once. Overviews just don't work now.

    This is perhaps the ugliest and most awkward DKos innovation, in how much difficulty it introduces into a previously far more straightforward and streamlined process. I hope you can add another list function with a hundred members on simple text lines per page. It would be so much better and less exasperating for the Admins of DKos groups, who do so much of our community organizing here. Personally, I just spend less time Administering now, because it's not worth losing so much time and temper over.

  5. 5 Posted by Puddytat on 06 Dec, 2020 01:14 AM

    Puddytat's Avatar

    Please allow me to add that I'm an admin of two groups with large number of members.

    In the past we had a long scrolling LIST of members which made managing groups easier. Today, we have a page through list with, what, about 8 members and their avatars? I can't keep track of who's who anymore, much less deal with invitees who don't respond to requested invitations or note and promote contributors who should be advanced to editor based on their activity within the group.

    I DO appreciate that you have finally fixed the ability to delete items from the queue. Much appreciated since that error message that I was not allowed (despite being an admin) to delete queued items enabled queues to grow to incredible levels. One of those queues was over 100 diaries long due to inappropriate material being sent to the queue over a couple of years.

    Aside from the queue deletion problems, the previous group pages functioned just fine.

    Thanks.

  6. 6 Posted by Puddytat on 06 Dec, 2020 01:23 AM

    Puddytat's Avatar

    Addendum:

    Just opened groups. 6 members listed per page. Ridiculous.

  7. 7 Posted by mettle fatigue on 06 Dec, 2020 01:58 AM

    mettle fatigue's Avatar

    Seconding all the above.
    Please note as well that the longtime list view allowed us to vary how the 75-or-so names on each member page were displayed, i.e., in addition to grouping by admin, editors & contributors, ordered in each group by date of having joined DK, it as also possible to click at the head of the column to get a single alphabetical order, and click again for a single reverse alphabetical order ---a huge efficiency for searching for a specific member or invitee-- and some other orderings as well.

    Additionally, the original list view made clear by literal date how recently each admin and editor had posted a diary, which was helpful for nonmembers who would be contacting admins to request to join, so they could have some idea of which of them was likely to be actively on-site replying to comments and therefore able to spot a new-message alert from the kosmailer making that request. Likewise for a nonmember to spot which admins and editors would mostly likely receive a reblog request in a timely manner, and of course likewise for a contributor who had queued a draft to the group who'd be kosmailing to request the assist of admins or editors to put the automatic schedule settings on that queued draft, since contributors technologically cannot do their own scheduling.

    The only improvement to the diary-date column of the list view would have been to ADD a how-recently-commented column, since there are often a few admins and editors in any group who only post diaries occasionally, but are very very often on site commenting at other diaries and replying to the replies their comments get.

    No data indicating genuine availability-to-kosmails currently exists in the redesign.

    The tech crew does appear to have rearranged admins by order of who has most recently posted a diary [???} in response to August 26ff points made that listing admins starting with founder not only gave no indication of timely availability but added obstruction, since many founders have long since left DK or passed way or been banned. Whatever the order in which admins are now listed, the precise nature of that order is not stated above the those names in the redesign, nor is the precise nature of the ordering of editors stated. But even if it were (and ought to be), that still would not be DATA about their availability to see a message waiting; it would only be a general, vague indication.

    Another absolutely useful improvement that many kosaks have requested in the past, was that messages-to-group should generate a new-message alert to all admins and editors, at their envelope icons and at their WelcomeBack box MESSAGES line. Many admins and editors, no matter how conscientious, are not in a good real-life position to check their kosmail inboxes a couple or three times a day in order to discover whether someone has messaged-to-the-group for any reason whatsoever. This would STILL BE A VALUABLE IMPROVEMENT.

    In addition, the re-engineering has involved a complete invitation overhaul by which, apparently, no admin or editor in the group except the individual admin sending an invitation to a specific individual will even KNOW of that invitation having been sent to whom, or even a general notice of an invitation sent. Before the "facelift" (as tech team termed it), invitations sent, and invitations accepted or rejected, generated specific messages to the group of those facts (likewise of individuals removed from the group, and I believe perhaps also of promotions and demotions). The lack of information about group workings shared across the entire admin & editor cadre can only be remedied by the admin who sent the invitation also going to added time/effort to kosmail to the group about it separately, or/and kosmailing to each individual other admin & editor. Lacking that information, other admins and editors have no way of knowing there's an invitee, hence no way of even checking to find out if that invitee is going to need teaching/training about how to queue, let alone about any established conventions of publishing within the given group. They cannot mentor new group members if they don't know there's anyone TO MENTOR. The same is true about admins mentoring editors, of course. A kosak who's never been an editor in any dk group won't magically acquire the skills simply by having been promoted.

  8. 8 Posted by ninkasi23 on 06 Dec, 2020 02:04 AM

    ninkasi23's Avatar

    I want to add a hearty second to this:
    "Another absolutely useful improvement that many kosaks have requested in the past, was that messages-to-group should generate a new-message alert to all admins and editors, at their envelope icons and at their WelcomeBack box MESSAGES line."

  9. Support Staff 9 Posted by Daily Kos Staff on 10 Dec, 2020 10:33 PM

    Daily Kos Staff's Avatar

    Hello, everyone.

    Thank you all for your thorough and detailed explanations of the features that continue to cause annoyance and inconvenience with the new Groups design. I've reviewed them all carefully and compiled a summary for the tech team to assess. I hope that at least the major issues will get some attention and eventually some changes will lead to a better experience.

    I can say a couple of things in the meantime. One is that unfortunately any adjustments to Kosmail are simply not on the table at this time. We do realize it will have to be upgraded eventually, but a number of other large-ish projects must be done first. With luck, an update of Kosmail will rise to the top of the priority list fairly soon, but I cannot be more definite about a timeframe.

    The other is that we do have a new "story list view" in the works. It is not directly related to Groups at all but is it is something that many users continue to mention as a high priority within the overall site update process.

    Thank you all for your dedication to creating vibrant discourse communities at Daily Kos. We value the enormous contribution you give to the site.

  10. 10 Posted by mettle fatigue on 16 Dec, 2020 03:46 AM

    mettle fatigue's Avatar

    REPLYING TO DAILY KOS STAFF DEC 10

    Regarding "we do have a new "story list view" in the works. It is not directly related to Groups at all but is it is something that many users continue to mention as a high priority within the overall site update process", please elaborate. Especially on the point of whether the creation of this " new story list view" is going to replace some existing story list view, and of so, which/whose.

    If replacement is indeed what's planned, precisely what elements are planned to be changed and in precisely what ways affecting accessibility of any existing sets of data currently accessible.

    Also, just how many users "continue to mention [it] as a high priority for themselves, and what are their dislikes about the existing pages, and what is their perspective (e.g., are they principally smartfone users), and what specifically have they asked for.

    Thank you for the fullest possible reply. If it's best given in the form of a diary stating plans with an openness to modification depending upon feedback, please be sure to post it to ALL these groups at minimum: DK Announcements, Cranky Users, Welcome New Users, and New Diarists. If there are additional staff or longtime-official-volunteer(or former official volunteer) groups, I would appreciate knowing those groups' names as well.

    Thanks again.

  11. Support Staff 11 Posted by elfling on 28 Dec, 2020 07:51 PM

    elfling's Avatar

    The new story list view will be replacing the existing ones in the old style pages. You can see it in action from the 'hamburger menu' in the upper left, if you haven't already seen it. This new view will make a list of any author or any group's stories, plus some additional ones like all staff, all community, and all published stories ever.

    The ability to remove published stories from the group will no longer be on these list views, but instead is accessible now from your group pages, using three dots in the upper right.

    We are currently reworking the views of group members and while I'm not sure it meets every desire, it should be much more usable for the needs y'all have mentioned. I expect that to be out sometime in January.

  12. 12 Posted by Brecht on 30 Dec, 2020 12:16 AM

    Brecht's Avatar

    Thanks, elfling and Daily Kos Staff, for sharing what information you have. I'm glad you're reworking the views of group members to make them much more usable.

    I found one small kluge on my iMac with Safari. When I'm looking at my kosmailbox in the old style, it includes kosmails sent from my various groups. The first column in that view covers addresses. If I click on a group's name in that column, it takes me to the group's profile, old style. To wit, the central column says "Editors:", then lists Admins followed by Editors followed by Contributors, with each rank in order of joining DKos.

    Now, when I click on anything else (e.g. MEMBERS), it takes to me one of the new-style pages I find so cumbersome. But if all I want is to glance through the names of all my group's members, I can now find them on one page.

Reply to this discussion

Internal reply

Formatting help / Preview (switch to plain text) No formatting (switch to Markdown)

Attaching KB article:

»

Attached Files

You can attach files up to 10MB

If you don't have an account yet, we need to confirm you're human and not a machine trying to post spam.

Keyboard shortcuts

Generic

? Show this help
ESC Blurs the current field

Comment Form

r Focus the comment reply box
^ + ↩ Submit the comment

You can use Command ⌘ instead of Control ^ on Mac