New tag searching looks nice but is counterproductive for serious searching. Is there a way to reach the original design?

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mettle fatigue

05 Mar, 2020 11:36 PM

As a general research librarian by profession ---with an MS in information science, half a PhD in collection mgmt, & roughly 30 yrs working in databases beginning 1970--- I value efficiency and effectivity highly, and I use dk's search engine a great deal for finding a wide range of information supporting the local and special-interest groups I'm in, and for related purposes about which I'm often asked questions and asked for help.

I appreciate that the site may have additional goals to reach where searching is concerned.

Please provide a route to using the site's search engine so that it displays results in the old format, since this isn't something google can be relied upon in the least to remedy.

Please also supply instructions for how to start following a tag, since the Heart/Follow appears to have been removed from the top of tag pages.

Thanks,

--m

  1. 1 Posted by siab on 06 Mar, 2020 07:42 AM

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    The search engine works as it always has, and displays the tag search results as before, but they've modified the process.

    To add a tag to your list to Follow, go to your Profile, Following, Tags.

    You will see a heart above the NOTE/REMOVE columns, followed by ADD TAGS. Click on that and a box opens up that lets you add whatever single or multiple tags you wish.to run a Search on. The Search returns results on the same page, in order under the box, and you can then check the boxes for those tags you wish to add to your list.

    It's kind of neat, actually.

  2. 2 Posted by mettle fatigue on 06 Mar, 2020 12:01 PM

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    "displays the tag search results as before" --um, NO.
                  -- 2 days ago, the results were displayed in ol'-fashion/backstage/orange-on-buff/whateveryawannacallit style. For the past 24 or so hours, the results have been displayed very similar to blogview style, e.g., here https://www.dailykos.com/tags/Agriculture So it may be that we are not meaning the same thing by "display".
                 This new style is extraordinarily space-wastey, both horizontally and vertically (note the yawningly empty left hand column and often little less empty righthand as well at the link I provided). The waste appears to be a factor of 20 at minimum, compared o the previous mode of display, possibly more, and previous was not that great to begin with, but at least wasn't overloaded with images of little to zero informational content of any value.
                   The result of this new design is that it's good for very little more than seeing what's most recent. It supplies almost zero index functionality. Trying to use it as an index means trudging through literal innumerably more pages loaded after loaded than previously in order to do any thorough finding for particular details, and the tag pages weren't not that great on space-use to begin with.

    As to the method of adding a tag for follow-purposes that you describe, it's not new and it's not a good one.
                It's one of I believe 3 routes that used to exist, now down to 2. (Compare ability to follow individual kosaks or groups: 7 to 8 routes each, counting all pages of groups and individuals where the heart-follow is available to click, plus hovering and then clicking on an individual kosak's name as diarist or commenter.)
                Those routes are readily available AND they replicate method, obviously.
                 A well-designed system would replicate the method for ANY following to take effect: i.e., at the page of a person, a tag, or a group, a hover and click ought to suffice as it does for person (and if that's not feasible at the moment for groups, at least do not erase a reasonably similar method for tags when tags only had 3 in the first place).
                   As the moment, altho' a group's blockview page doesn't allow a hover+click for following, at least it only takes ONE more click to reach any of several group pages where the heart-follow IS displayed. Just as the heart-follow is still displayed at any of an individual kosak's several pages. In fact, SEVEN ROUTES/PAGES for all groups and all individuals where the heart-follow remains clickable.
                  TAGS now have merely 2, and the one you seem to be recommending furthermore introduces probability of error with every use because it requires the individual kosak to get all the keystrokes right. Very often when I'm at the diary of a less-skilled kosak who's posting via the READERS&BOOKLOVERS queue, I find that tag either is not typed into the taglist at all or it's got all kinds of variations or typos in it. That's a mere 18 characters. I don't think it's going to be possible to persuade anyone to type in order to follow THIS group's tag https://www.dailykos.com/tags/OriginalFictionPoetry&MemoirforFun&Progress because I'm already have difficulty persuading members at several groups that it's in their own best interests to simply click on the specified tags in a diary's taglist in order to follow, which is one of the only 2 routes left. E.g., I've personally welcomed each kosak who's joined Wyoming Kosaks, and asked them to click to follow the group as such and the tag Wyoming while it was easily available merely to click at the heart-follow. Here's how well that's worked out https://www.dailykos.com/tags/Wyoming Does anyone in management seriously think that shunting kosaks to their follow pages to type tags in and search among results, possibly skewed by typos, is going to engage enthusiasm? NOT in this era of clicking LIKE or DISLIKE, my friends.
                   Certainly not low-skill site members for whom the steps you enumerated do not replicate and therefore do not reinforce other follow-routes and in turn are not reinforced. That route is only replicated by admins adding members to groups, as far as I know, and the vast majority of kosaks aren't even in groups, let alone admins of groups.
                   Most of the members of Wyoming Kosaks, for example, don't even know any editor or reblogging skills. I'm doing a lot of handholding by kosmail taking them thru the tutorial step by step, also other groups as well, and very often on individual basis when someone else asks for my help on how-to.
                  Possibly worst of all, typing introduces a multitude of probability of error that adds to the already error-clogged, winging-it mountain of tags in the dk system when people originate tags, and which complicates further the search for a tag actually on any diary using the recommended at-profile-page steps. People at keyboards & on devices make typos all the damn time. Having to type ANYTHING in because of no way or difficult ways to simply reach somewhere to click is going to radically increase associated errors and radically increase kosaks not getting diaries into their activity streams that they have every reason to trust they WILL get. The existence of the Activity Stream says so.
                  At best, highlighting and copying that tag (such as from the tag page, omitting the #) may decrease frustration over typos, but the route to a new tag page ---where once a single click did the job--- is now extended to a long, game-like procedure for pasting that tag in, searching for it, and finally selecting it.
                  Naturally the route you outlined needs to exist. But it's the last best option, not the first best.

    I can only strongly encourage whomever makes these decisions that they withdraw the new tag-page design until [a] they have restored click-to-follow as availably on tag pages as on group pages and individual kosaks' pages ---ESPECIALLY given that the latter offer at least 8 routes and tags at this moment only 2-- AND [b] until tag pages are redesigned to make good use of available space in a more index-effective layout rather than what resembles nearly miniature blog-view imitations obstructing searching significantly far back in time at all.

    I realize all of the tech crew is overworked, especially with the image library fiasco. Still I urge that it's more economic to do a job well the first time than have to keep doing it over and over and over and still lose functionality.

    Thanks very much.

  3. 3 Posted by siab on 06 Mar, 2020 01:18 PM

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    I'll point out that if you get them to type either Original or Memoir, it's within the top three of the subsequent list, but I apologize for having found information you already knew, and failing you so abysmally

  4. Support Staff 4 Posted by elfling on 06 Mar, 2020 10:24 PM

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    You are completely correct that the follow tag function is missing from the tag page. I've entered a ticket to add it back.

    In the meantime, maybe an easier way to follow a tag is from a story that carries that tag. Hover your mouse over the left side of the tag list, and there is a set of little heart outlines. You can click the one of interest and then you're following that tag.

  5. Support Staff 5 Posted by elfling on 06 Mar, 2020 10:27 PM

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    For a more compact search format, I suggest using this page:
    https://www.dailykos.com/search?text=&search_type=search_tags

    will let you search for individual tags

    and

    https://www.dailykos.com/search?text=water&search_type=search_stories

    will let you search for stories by tag as well as other criteria.

  6. 6 Posted by mettle fatigue on 06 Mar, 2020 11:32 PM

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    thank you, siab & elfling.

    siab, I don't feel you failed anything abysmally. For any of us who are comfortable with sequences of steps, it's just easy to forget that learning them can be discouragingly and even repellently difficult for others, especially in an era of just-click-to-get-what-you-want.
              And I appreciate your pointing out that key words may pull up the desired group name (for unknown reason, the complete group name doesn't pull up that group when searching in group mode. Or it didn't several times yesterday. But I've encountered that oddity with some other group names in dk, e.g., Friends of the Library Newsletter, so that might just be some weird quirk that occasionally happens.)

    Siab, as Elfling mentions and as my large reply up there includes, simply clicking on a tag at a diary is the other route.

    Elfling, thank you for those links. and for the ticket to restore the follow-tag function to tag pages.
    I can't seem to pull up that superb illustration of the tag list in the dk image library. May I trouble you for exact instructions? I've tried various search strategies as offered at the library, but to no avail for an hour or so (nor google) so this probably represents a gap in my learning to date. I'd like to add the illustration to this little diary I posted in 2014 https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2014/4/9/1290674/-KosAbility-Schedule-Upcoming?_=2019-02-16T16:33:12.516-08:00 on tag-following and groups. I probably should also revise it further to include the links you supplied. I often use those screens myself, in various ways, but hadn't thought of including direct links to them.

    Thank you both again.

  7. Support Staff 7 Posted by elfling on 06 Mar, 2020 11:38 PM

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    oh, the image isn't in the image library, I made it just for you. I'll put it there now. Search for image 774425. You're welcome.

  8. 8 Posted by mettle fatigue on 07 Mar, 2020 03:05 AM

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    Cool!!! Thnx very much!!! Annotated it a little, because I couldn't get image library tags to stick. Hoping that's ok with you.

  9. 9 Posted by mettle fatigue on 08 Mar, 2020 02:03 AM

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    Um, has the page been moved that showed a bar graph for most used tags and with major general categories of tags such as environment, healthcare, etc?

    I rarely use it, but happened to try just now, and would have sworn it was linked at the word TAGS just below the S in DAILY KOS on the old-style pages. That link is now pulling up this page https://www.dailykos.com/search?search_type=search_tags

  10. 10 Posted by mettle fatigue on 09 Mar, 2020 04:37 AM

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    Would like to add some additional input about tag-pages:

    I forgot to include mention that all newspapers of any repute possess a “morgue” which again, dk tags are the only index to.

    The new design appears geared to smartphones. But overemphasis on illustration will swamp what little text is displayed, won't it? Would not the amt of illus'n used for the existing right-hand column of Recommended Diaries, Most Shared, etc, as displayed on all blogview pages, be fully adequate? Illos. are good to relieve eyestrain, but their usefulness in information terms i minimal except for supplying artwork or data not replicated in diary text. And even if the latter, actually clicking to read the diary would supply the best view.

    While my actually coding knowledge is decades obsolete (and piecemeal, what’s left of it), is there any prohibitive reason why old & new cannot both exist? For all practical reasons and purposes, they should. If there’s some server/cloud/thingy space issue, wouldn't the RecommendedDiaries type of format eat less ... like... bandwidth, surely? And perhaps utilize/copy some of the code of that design rather than have to originate as much.

    Most importantly, again, please preserve the original tag pages in some reasonably findable way.

    thnx

  11. 11 Posted by mettle fatigue on 10 Mar, 2020 01:47 AM

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    Show me.

        On Monday, March 9, 2020, 10:51:01 AM PDT, KCHereICome <[email blocked]> wrote:
     
      #yiv9504272090 pre {width:92%;margin:10px 2%;padding:5px 2%;background:#efefef;border:1px solid #d6d6d6;}#yiv9504272090 blockquote {margin-left:0;padding-left:1em;border-left:5px solid #ccc;}
    |

  12. Support Staff 12 Posted by Daily Kos Staff on 10 Mar, 2020 08:08 PM

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    Hello, and thanks for the helpdesk query.

    I'm not elfling but one way or another I am sure she will see your follow-up.

    Regarding the Image Library tags: We did have a bug affecting creation of new tags within the Image Library. It has been addressed, and the process should work as expected now. Apologies for the glitch in the first place.

  13. 13 Posted by mettle fatigue on 12 Mar, 2020 12:03 PM

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    Thankyou, whomever explained about image library tags. That was nice of you to do.
    I'll wait for elfling to see the question in #9 above. It's not urgent or anything.

  14. Support Staff 14 Posted by Daily Kos Staff on 12 Mar, 2020 04:20 PM

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    You are welcome.

    I checked with elfling about your question in #9 (because she rarely covers Helpdesk nowadays, given her expanded responsibilities elsewhere) and confirmed that the bar graph page has not and will not be retained in the new design. Sorry.

    As she noted last week, that missing "follow" option was a good catch and the fix is now in progress. When it's complete I'll make a point to let you know.

    Regarding the other question about archiving the old Tags pages format, there really isn't anything special in terms of content there; it's all been transferred. The only substantive change is the omission of the graph which you have noticed.

    Thanks again for your attention to detail and for your support of the site.

  15. Daily Kos Staff closed this discussion on 12 Mar, 2020 04:20 PM.

  16. mettle fatigue re-opened this discussion on 12 Mar, 2020 11:06 PM

  17. 15 Posted by mettle fatigue on 12 Mar, 2020 11:25 PM

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    Thanks for your reply & the information about the eliminated page.

    re:"Regarding the other question about archiving the old Tags pages format, there really isn't anything special in terms of content there; it's all been transferred. The only substantive change is the omission of the graph which you have noticed.: - RESPECTFULLY, ON PROFESSIONAL GROUNDS, I HAVE TO RESPOND THAT THERE IS A GREAT DEAL "SPECIAL" IN TERMS OF CONTENT AND UTILITY IN THE OLD TAG PAGES FORMAT. It wasn't perfect, but it was within-reason functional as detailed in my earlier comments in this thread. INFORMATION SCIENCE (as fundamentally distinct from computer science, internet technology, web design, and so forth) IS MY PROFESSION: I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. The massive wasted space of the illo-heavy new tag page design ---a waste that represents in turn massively prohibitive time-waste for purposes of using tag pages as newspaper-morgue/index to the site--- posseses only 2 new virtues that could easily have been incorporated into a more functional design: the ability to know who follows what tags and the ability to know which writers use them, the latter potentially partially false, if Trusted Users can continue to add tags to diaries that writers failed to grasp that they should have.

    Many many many users valuable to this site, however unknown to management they may be, have decreased participation or left altogether following each wave of glossy redesigning that obstructs utility in terms of information access and in terms of visual difficulty. All for layer upon layer of high fructose corn syrup with only a few actual advantages added. If the aim of this site is to elect more and better democrats, better quality nourishment is required.

    Thank you for your reply, but there's nothing to be gained in peeing on Judge Judy's leg and telling her it's raining.
    tnx again

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